A truly inspiring episode. Jason and Greg chat to adventurer Ian Holdcroft. After a negative experience, Ian decided to embark on the adventures he had always dreamed of, running ultra marathons, including a race across the Atacama desert, followed by rowing across the Atlantic. Ian is co-founder of https://shackleton.com/ and in the spirit of the famous explorer we discuss pushing your limits and being comfortable with the uncomfortable.
The Midlife Athlete podcasts are free and we hope our fans enjoy them.
Click here to subscribe to our newsletter and automatically get our latest podcasts, blogs, offers etc into your inbox.
You can find Midlife Athlete on
Twitter @PodMid
Instagram @mid_life_athlete
Click here to subscribe to our newsletter and automatically get our latest podcasts, blogs, offers etc into your inbox.
A truly inspiring episode. Jason and Greg chat to adventurer Ian Holdcroft. After a negative experience, Ian decided to embark on the adventures he had always dreamed of, running ultra marathons, including a race across the Atacama desert, followed by rowing across the Atlantic. Ian is co-founder of https://shackleton.com/ and in the spirit of the famous explorer we discuss pushing your limits and being comfortable with the uncomfortable.
The Midlife Athlete podcasts are free and we hope our fans enjoy them.
Click here to subscribe to our newsletter and automatically get our latest podcasts, blogs, offers etc into your inbox.
You can find Midlife Athlete on
Twitter @PodMid
Instagram @mid_life_athlete
Click here to subscribe to our newsletter and automatically get our latest podcasts, blogs, offers etc into your inbox.
00:29
Hello, welcome to midlife athlete Podcast. I'm host xever Jason, and I'm joined by my co host and mate Greg, how are you, Greg? Very well. I'm excited about today we are first explorer. Yeah, first explorer before we jump on to the explorer, because I will definitely be told off by a marketing person if I don't do this properly. And I'm desperate to get it right this time. So
00:54
we have we are on Facebook. So you can you can join a conversation on Facebook. If you just search for midlife athlete, we've got a page we've got a group and you can talk to other listeners as well hopefully. We're also on substack, which is a newsletter and email newsletter. And if you go to midlife athlete.substack.com you can be able to see some of the newsletter stuff we're pushing out, you can subscribe to it, and it'll drop in your inbox. And likewise, we're on all of the platforms so you can find us on Spotify, iTunes Buzzsprout Amazon music, which I found out the other day, I didn't even know we were on their Amazon Music podcast. And you can find us there just by searching midlife athlete and yeah, please subscribe and join us. So without further ado, welcome Ian Holcroft. Welcome in. Hi, guys. Hi, Jason. Hi, Greg. Hello. Pleasure to meet you both. And great to be great to be on this podcast. Great to be on your show. I'm excited about what the next few minutes has in store. Yes. Well, it's not as exciting as your beard because we talked about the reference. Before we came on about an Explorer's be it it is it is superb. I wish listeners could see magnificent, magnificent explorers beard.
02:15
It's not a hipster beard, though. This is this is this is proper. This is what a beard is all about a real,
02:22
real beard. If anyone can see me blushing now,
02:26
probably self conscious and slimy.
02:30
But flattered, I guess, you know.
02:34
Me and, you know, it's it is fair to say that, you know, you are kind of a bit of an explorer sort of Expedition guy in the sense that, you know, part of the reason we've got you on really is to talk about the the challenge you did in the Atacama Desert, the running challenge, and we will go into these details. And then obviously, the row across the Atlantic, which, which I think gave rise to the beard, as you were alluding to earlier, so.
02:59
But what I was really kind of struck with I mean, you you're a co founder of Shackleton, the, I guess the expedition clothing company, but obviously, ordinary the likes of us ordinary folks can also buy the stuff and wear it, but it but it's also high end stuff for people who you know, are full on Expedition people. But I think you started life as a trader, if I'm if I'm not right, or in that sort of financial industry. Yes, I did. Yeah, that's that's absolutely. That's absolutely right. And so, yes, let me I guess I'll start at the sort of where we currently are. And yeah, Shackleton is essentially
03:40
a performance apparel business. And also expedition experiences as well. So earlier this year, we launched Shackleton challenges, which are, I guess, to the outside world probably look like adventure travel, which essentially, it is, but it's, it's kind of, it's a more extreme version of, I guess, it's sort of mini expedition experiences, it's basically allowing people to have that kind of explorer and Expedition experience, but in a in a, in a kind of wrapped up in a shorter timeframe. And with you know, great support, and, you know, the clothing and all the kit that you need, basically, and we I'm sure we'll go into a little bit more detail later in the conversation, but we also build an entire experience around that as well. So we give nutritional advice, you know, physical preparation, kit advice, you know, in psychological preparation as well. So it's an overall experience that can last anything from six to 18 months depending on you know, booking and when you actually go on on the actual challenge part of the overall experience, but prior to Shackleton, yes, you're absolutely right. I worked in the city. I was a financial futures trader, I traded European sovereign debt,
04:51
which I don't know that sounds terribly glamorous or not, but
04:55
maybe some people that does that. It's not that glamorous, it's sort of chasing numbers.
05:00
Around numerous computer screens and trying to, I guess, take advantage of fluctuations in prices and things. And so yeah, I was doing that for about 15 years. And
05:12
I guess sort of culturally it was never really quite a fit for me because it's there's a lot of there's a lot to like, I guess about that lifestyle and working in the city and that type of thing. But just culturally, it was never, never quite right and sort of my background I was born and brought brought up in Stoke on Trent and from a pretty, I guess, humble backgrounds and I played a lot of sports, a lot of school when I was younger, many teens sports, but I did a lot of kind of running and cross country running and athletics is, is what just from not from enjoyment point of view, but also going to kind of general fitness.
05:47
And then went off to university carried on playing sports. And then Post University, I guess, discovered other things, which not so conducive to a healthy lifestyle. And we're alcohol, maybe one of you
06:04
for that type of stuff. And so but I guess back then, as well as like back then, and then crikey, this was when I was at university is what mid 90s.
06:12
So I'm 46 now, um, you know, sport was sort of kind of hand in hand with, you know, alcohol and the pub. And after, after game beers. It still is, I guess, amateur level now, but certainly not a professional level. And I mean, I play semi professional football actually.
06:33
Back then it's still very much the culture of football, but it was in a clubhouse with pints, then off to the pub and into the nearest nightclub, you know, and
06:41
I'm sure it's not quite the same, same now. But it certainly was when I was growing up anyway.
06:47
So yes, you're actually right. And I always remember I was, I remember the Royal Geographical Society. And so I'd often find myself on Monday nights, going to the Monday evening lectures and listening to people talk about, you know, great travels and expeditions and explorations and adventures. And I would sort of often sit there thinking, that's the life that I want to live, you know, what, why, why am I in the city doing that, but yet coming to the RGS listen to people living the life that I guess I really wanted to live that I thought I would find much more fulfilment in. And so it was at that point, I started thinking, well, actually, you know, I want to move away from the city get out of that sort of world and that environment to start to pursue some of my passions. And I was doing an awful lot of adventure racing at the time.
07:32
ultra marathons across deserts and mountains and things. And I think it was then that
07:38
so I just carry on talking, by the way, or you carry a
07:42
question five.
07:46
And so I, I just thought I need I need to get away from that world, I need to sort of pursue my passions and interests. And I'd always been, I guess, had a deep interest in the sort of what I guess is considered this sort of heroic age or the Golden Age of Exploration and I don't necessarily know why I don't think it's connected to any sort of sense of patriotism or Commonwealth or anything like that. It was more a case of I just liked that idea of adventure. And, and I guess also just, in some sense, the physical, but most importantly, the mental challenge of doing things that are kind of out of the ordinary. And so Shackleton as well as people like Scott and Amundson, and Hillary and you know, all those, you know, Mallory all those guys have always been sort of at the forefront of my mind and hence reason my impart I was a member of the Royal Geographical Society. And a few years earlier, I've met who is now my co founding partner, Martin Brooks. I was on a family holiday on a Greek island called Sun fixer Kinross. And he was on the other side of the pool with his family and, and this is a true story. It's not convenient backstory for having having co founded the business but I was reading Randall finds his book race to the pole, which you guys will probably know is all about Amundson and Scott's race to the South Pole in 1911. I hope I've got that. I'm sure I've got that correct. And, and this guy Martin sort of breezed past me and said I'm more of a Shackleton myself. And so
09:23
I was in my budget smugglers and
09:26
we started talking about this is a true story. And we did we started to talk about the merits of Shackleton, Scott, because some people love Scott Page chakra tonnes of love. Shackleton hates God. And a lot of written about both. And it turned out he lived half a mile down the road in southwest, southwest London for me and so we became good friends actually. So we would often meet up for drinks and the local pub and a couple of pints of steak and a bottle of red wine and at the time, he was running a digital marketing agency
09:57
in London, and he was in the process of
10:00
selling his business to have as a big French ad agency and he been a brand guy and marketing guy
10:08
and he's a sailor as well he'd sales he said across the Atlantic and has been down to Antarctica and and actually on his boardroom wall at work he had a photograph of I'm looking at the very photo. The photograph was thrown Shackleton on his wall. And so we started talking about well, you know, can we build combine his expertise and branding and marketing with my sort of passion and desire for adventure and the outdoors. And I guess, insurance sports with also my kind of commercial background, could recreate a business and create a brand. Anyway, I don't know if that even I still question. Well, it gives us it gives gives us great background. Yeah, absolutely. And it also says that either he won, and Shackleton is that the favoured one because you call the business. Shackleton Yes. Or maybe you are both Shackleton men. Maybe
11:02
that's funny should say that. I think I was at the time, I was probably more of a sculpt kind of guy. And I don't know why they don't read read read. I should really be saying shallow. But what's incredible. And you know, I know this podcast was sorry about Shackleton my business, but I it's certainly linked is that what is incredible about Sir Ernest Shackleton is this very day, you know, his management and leadership crisis is still stood at Harvard Business School. There's been numerous books written about so if I ran off phones, I actually ran out of funds is wasteful, because time has recently, so recently, four weeks ago, six weeks ago, has just released a book all about Shackleton.
11:40
And, you know, he studied by sports coaches and performance coaches, as somebody who, you know, 100 years later, clearly demonstrated such amazing leadership and management of people when, in extreme circumstances, that it's as applicable today as it was there. And I guess all those values of courage and, you know, optimism, and I guess, to certain extent, sort of Derring do it just there is more than now as they were 100 years ago. And so. So now, Shackleton, what strikes me is the fact that there was actually a conflict between people who liked Scotland like shacks, I just had no idea there was some sort of dichotomy in the world.
12:25
Think, yeah, I think it depends what your background is, to a certain extent, Scott was a kind of a darling of the sort of institution, let's say, and Royal Geographical Society, you know, he was, you know, he was, you know, he was in the Navy, and he was kind of an old school sort of leader of men and had very kind of hierarchical structures on his.
12:49
On his expeditions, to the extent that Scott's hurt down in Antarctica, there's very clear marks on the floor about who could go into certain areas. So effectively is an open just a large hurts, that's then just kind of divided up with curtains and affected markings on the floor. You know, instead, if you measure this rank, you can't step over this mark into this area, where Shackleton was one of the boys, he was a bit of a lad to be frank. And, but as but it meant that he sort of had the respect he had from his crew, I guess, because they always recognise he was prepared to get down into hands and knees and scrub the floor, he was prepared to, you know, pull a pole who's prepared to do the dirty work, roll up his sleeves and get stuck in and so what Shackleton was greater, I guess was sort of leading by doing and showing that he was prepared to do it. And in some sense, that inspires people. And then when there's a lovely quote, actually, and I think maybe this encapsulates both characters as well as Adamson, so
13:52
a fellow explorer back in the early 1900s. So Raymond Priestley said this, he said, the speed and efficiency of travel give me Amundson for scientific discovery give me Scott. But when all hope has gone, and you're in a hell of a situation, get down on your knees and pray for Shackleton. I think it's quite a nice quote, because it sort of it says that all these three guys were very different. They all had different strengths. And therefore you would go to each of them for a particular thing, but what I find most, I find actually quite finding them actually just what I would say that quote, what I find most remarkable by that quote is just that sense of when you're in a, when you're in the Shi t then there's one man for it and that's that, that's Shackleton. The boss has he was known by his man
14:40
it's always interesting that if a British thing that Scott who it was a glorious failure is remembered much more than Shackleton whether the it's a bit like so the charge of the of the Light Brigade is remembered as a bit of a folly. But in fact, no one knows well, very few people know that there's a there's
15:00
Charge of the heavy brigade, which was actually a success.
15:04
We were applauding successful failures. But but but if you're not, I mean, but Shackleton is not as well known, I don't think is Scott.
15:15
Yeah, that's an interesting observation. I think. I yeah, I think a lot of people that is the case, and then a lot of people also the reverse is the case, you know, hence the reason why, you know, Shackleton still stood at Harvard Business School, but I think the Shackleton
15:32
Yes, Shackleton did ultimately die on an expedition actually, quest, which was his fourth expedition to Antarctica. Scott, as you know, unfortunately, sadly passed away on his return journey from the South Pole. Effective run out of Run. I don't have them who are, but it's pretty tragic. And they ran out of supplies. And the conditions were horrific. And they unfortunately had a slow miserable death. But
15:58
yeah, it's, in some sense, they kind of both, both guys bailed ultimately. And they're the mission that that wanted your Shackleton wanted across the whole of the Antarctica didn't get to the start line, you know, he lost his ship insurance in the pack, it got brushed, and he's most famous for actually getting off rescuing all his men, you know, and go all back alive. And
16:23
that's, in some sense, a great example, I guess, of how English is a great lesson for all of us, you know, and applies today, probably as much now as it did years ago is that, that the failure isn't the end, you know, failure is just the beginning of the next phase and out of failure, if we're prepared to,
16:46
I guess readjust your horizons or think about what actually what you want out of life, I think you can turn failure into success. And that's essentially, and I guess I may as well talk about it now, because I guess the two are linked is that sort of what happened to me with getting into Ultra running is that two weeks after my first child was born, and I won't get into much of the detail, but I made her horrendous mistake at work. And it was in the height of the
17:15
the credit crisis, basically, there's I don't know if you remember, there's a subprime crisis in America, that then affected the banking system, and there's a banking crisis, and then that then effectively rolled over into sovereign price sovereign debt crisis. So you probably remember Greece and Italy. And so the markets were just in absolute turmoil, in fact, a lot worse than them. They have been in the last, you know, two years with the pandemic, not withstanding, maybe the first couple of days of the pandemic.
17:43
And I made a horrendous mistake. And
17:46
yeah, it's,
17:49
yeah, I don't, I'm done a lot of good and hard work and put myself in a very difficult situation. And I, and it was two weeks after my first child was born, I've got three now. And I think I was in a bit of kind of emotional turmoil at the time as to kind of how I was going to respond. And I, I, it took me a few days, I think, to just sort of get through the shop. But I recognise that as one of those kind of moments in life, that
18:14
you maybe have three or four in your entire life, I don't know, but live a genuine life defining moments, not a kind of, I've got a decision to make about whether I go to that blog, or that pub, or, you know, a genuine sort of the outcome of this is going to define my immediate future. And I decided that the only way not the only way that my way of dealing with it, I say was to connect. That's what was a very negative experience with a very positive outcome. And to find a way of saying, well, actually, if I hadn't had that experience, I wouldn't have done that thing. And so I went about then this sort of long journey that ended with but liberty and within the sense of starting with ended with the Atacama Desert crossing, which was, I just wanted to sort of say, right, this, this, this is a kick up the backside for me to make certain choices about my life, my direction of travel, the things I want to do the things that I want to achieve. And so it's I suppose it is a little bit Shackleton esque, in that sense, which is I failed here. What can I do to turn that failure into a great positive by achieving something else?
19:22
And I guess that's what Shackleton did. He rescued all these men and you know, Hanser is my is regarded as,
19:28
you know, a hero. And in fact, funny enough.
19:31
Donald Trump was president to the United States of America, there was a on the front page of the Washington Post there was there's an article The headline was what President Trump could learn from what President Trump could learn about leadership from Serena Shackleton.
19:49
I'm waffling now. So what that leads us straight into that to that desert crossing, I mean, well, perhaps even before the desert crossing because did you
20:00
Do we run in at all? Any significant distances? You know, when you at this point?
20:10
No. So I, I run a marathon I run the London Marathon actually, in 2005 I'm pretty sure it was and I loved it. I just absolutely loved it. Oh, my running prior to that within, back in my school days of athletics across countries and much shorter distances, and obviously, playing sport and stuff, so I was fit.
20:30
And then I lost my fitness as a consequence of other things in my 20s. So run the London Marathon 2005. And it was a most amazing experience, it was an incredible day. It just bring broom.
20:42
And so when this this moments happened in 2009, that I just described at work I, I wasn't running then No, and I probably wasn't terribly fit either at the time.
20:56
And I, I thought that I needed to do something that was so significant, at some point, and my not quite immediate horizon, but maybe, you know, 18 months, two years away, that was so significant, that it was going to take an awful lot of preparation, both physically and mentally and emotionally,
21:16
to really force me to be much more operated a much more conscientious level, I guess, day to day. And so I then went about to train really, really hard. So I slowly built up and so I run multiple ultra marathons present multiple, probably half a dozen in the build up to then doing the Atacama crossing over the course of it would have been almost two years. I think, from the moment I said like, that's the thing I'm going to do from that point. So it probably took about two years. And then and then I ended up in Chile and had the most amazing experience and actually did pretty well as well, which I guess we'll talk about in a bit. When I think first of all, how far did you run across the Atacama Desert? And that's yes, so it's a new grass. But that's I from memory, I think it was about 275 kilometres ish.
22:13
It basically equated to 123456 I think roughly seven marathons in six days, but the way the way, so it was multistage, and it was four consecutive marathons. And then on the fifth day, did a double marathon.
22:33
And then on the final day, which was day six, or I think maybe day seven because I think the double marathon obviously took longer than a day for
22:41
was kind of the best parts of America again. So if that equates to roughly 275 kilometres, that's that's about Sass and math and disarm blood plus a bit more. Yeah, I think what's interesting about the Atacama unlike the marathon desarrolla is that it's it's altitude, it's very hard. That's really high. So we were running anything between
23:05
crikey I think we went up to about 5000 metres, which is the equivalent just give give me some context that's almost the height of Mont Blanc so that sought to you know, the prize mountain Europe and so
23:18
yeah, there was there was a lot of nosebleeds.
23:23
Shortness of breath.
23:26
But the reason I wanted to do the Atacama actually cuz I think, you know, Martin they saw, but I haven't done. But there's a couple of other races Gobi Desert, for instance.
23:36
I want to do the Africa because terrain wise, it's very different as well. I mean, I think everyone has a picture of a desert in their mind of exam rooms, which is definitely the case with, say, North Africa. After column is very interesting. It's the salt flats, there is some June's there's sort of, you know, huge sort of almost like moonscape areas that it's, it's very under altitude as well. And so it's not just, it is a running challenge. But it's also a, in some sense that it is a survival of the element challenge as well.
24:10
But a beautiful desert. I mean, really, very, you know, almost every day there was, you know, and you've got the backdrop of the Andes as well, in the far distance, you know, which is super hot during the day for about three or four hour period, it probably, you know, 40 plus, and then at night it drops to
24:28
because there's no humidity there as well. So it gets, you know, no cloud job to subzero at night. So you go from one extreme to the other, which is, you know, I guess most deserts are like that, but the Atacama is.
24:42
Yeah, zero 0% humidity. So it's quite an interesting place. And I imagine fairly brutal on the feet. Yes, yeah.
24:56
Yeah, so I was in my preparation. I sort of go
25:00
until I got into the whole subculture, I guess, of ultra running, then it's a whole kind of wacky world, which is kind of, I suppose now is a bit more sort of mainstream. But but that I mean, not many people were doing it. And so there's an American guy called Dean come as come as he wrote a few books about just running ridiculous this and I remember the first time I read that somebody ran 100 miles in a day, which I've now done multiple times, but the time I just thought I couldn't produce, I just do the help 100 miles a day, what's that all about? And so, so it got quite into the whole kind of ultra marathon running thing. And
25:35
very few people have done one sort of study in my kind of, you know, sphere and but I kept reading about how one should start with, you know, running shoes, two or three sizes too big for you, because your feet will swell so much that, you know, you need room room for swelling. And I couldn't really believe that. But I think I started the Atacama, there's a number of factors at play with the Atacama is the one an ultramarathon is as long as the fact you're on feet on your feet for hours and hours and hours, but also, because you're bashing them up, because you're pounding them all the time against rocks, and all sorts of stuff that you're getting quite a lot of kind of information
26:16
is that I think by the end of the first day, my my feet were already my shoes are already feeling too tight. And that that the start the first day, there were shoe sizes too big for me. I think By day three, I was in so much discomfort, I was having to relieve the pressure by cutting the shoes effectively to release you know, some of the but the problem is with that, then you've got issues with sand and all that type stuff. By crack, I don't really I think it might have been the longer as I was then having to.
26:47
And this is again, I never thought I'd have to do this. I was drilling.
26:52
I was drilling through my toenails to pierce the swelling, the blisters that were under underneath my toes
27:02
to relieve the pressure in my in my feet and to try and get some of the swelling down.
27:08
So yeah, it's you got affected, it's like, it's a bit like the Think of the smallest drillbit you've ever seen. You basically just screw screw screw screw screw, and eventually, sort of a squirt of reduce will come out on its head, did you actually take the drill bit know that this might be something that you'd have to do? No, that's a good question. I didn't I was totally agreed to this, it was. So as part of the race setup,
27:36
what would happen is, effectively, I guess, a little bit like a, I suppose a Tour de France, you know, you'd start the day, you'd have a particular kind of route. And you know, once you've crossed the finish line, that was the end of that, that stage completed. So you're left to your own devices to a certain extent, it's like, you know, you're in the middle of a desert, it's right, go, you know, and off, you drop the sea you in a few hours. And so you sort of get to the kind of end of that day stage and a small camp will be set up a campfire and then you know, maybe a dozen or so tents around the outside.
28:09
But there was there was a medic that was there. And I remember sort of crawling on my hands to the madness tent and just in you know, I wasn't the only one in all fairness, and a lot of discomfort and you know, basically because my feet were so swollen and
28:26
and so he said, so you just gave me this thing. And I said what's that and there's basically essentially like a tiny drill bit and he just said just start screwing that into your
28:39
and win for Brett and and you'll see what happens and I did and then I think by the end of the week, I was actually cutting into my I think it's my right little toe that becomes so it was about the size size of my big toe slightly to open just to try and get some of the fluid out anyway sounds really unpleasant. I'm sure your viewers. It sounds like a Swiss army knife. We've got a new new thing to add on to one of their pen
29:07
toenail piercer drillbit but
29:11
when I when I did the there's a race in the Alps called the ultra towers and Mont Blanc was done a couple times. And that's that's 170 kilometres but it's in one go you just a single stage race. And it's the equivalent of climbing Everest up and down whilst covering 165 70 kilometres. So it's like a 30 hour run, basically but I but by that when I completed that race, I remember pulling my socks off and with it, most of my toe petals coming off. Its back. This is a very unpleasant anyway, this is all of it kind of
29:50
if you don't mind, how do we go back a little bit because, I mean, the whole Atacama thing is fascinating but I still want to come
30:00
Have you said you've you started reading these books that people run 100 miles in a day? And you're like, how the hell did they do that? How? How do you do that? And how did you get your head around? That? I think because that I think is a really, I suspect most listeners will be thinking that they might have gone for a 5k park run. And the thought of running 100 Miles is like, I don't even know how do I go about doing that? It is a really good question. And it's a question.
30:34
I've often been asked why why to do that? Why do you want to put yourself through that sort of that pain, discomfort and I think that, let's be honest runnings, not that much fun, running is difficult, it doesn't matter how fit you are, how strong you are, how experienced you are running is a difficult thing to do. And I and, and anyone that runs will know will know that it's, it's miserable, it hurts, running really does hurt. And it doesn't matter what the business is. And I think that
31:02
where I got to running is I actually found it very,
31:09
kind of quite therapeutic action chi
31:13
is sort of became my personal therapy session online for run, I think what would tend to happen, especially my long, long runs, but I was really kind of cranking up the mileage and preparation for an Ultra is that the first hour or so
31:26
you would everything hurt, you're out of breath, you know, niggle hurt the knee, old knee injury, her everything just hurt. And so it was having to sort it out, everyone that runs will know that and you sort of got to get through that that phase. And I think in amongst all this as a physical kind of thing. And then there's the mental thing of just noise in your head, you know, work relationships, you know, the the kind of thing that happened that morning, you know, in the corner shop or you know, all that all the day to day noise of life. So it's always you've got the two things going on, you've got the physical, the physical discomfort, and then I think you've got this sort of just the mental discomfort. What I found over time, though, is that all that slowly starts to settle down. And eventually you find a calmness or both a physical sort of calm is where you get quite familiar with your body and how it works and what hurts and what doesn't. And you start to recognise that actually, well, I felt this before. And it's okay, I can work through this. But what I find most What if I'm, I suppose, and what I enjoy a lot about sort of, you know, sort of adventure and travel, sorry, I'm sort of insurance sports is that you get to sort of get a period of tranquillity where really nothing matters anymore, your mind settles, it's almost meditation, I suppose, and,
32:45
and then, and then you go through another phase, I suppose we start to then become we start to go really long distances, you start them become quite conscious, and now you are really starting to hurt. And so you then go beyond, what I would probably term is kind of like your, your known physical capabilities, and you now start dipping, so that balance between, say physical capability and men, full resilience starts to shift quite significantly, and then becomes to become a real mental challenge then. And I think that I got to a place with Ultra running, where actually, I might, this might sound a bit crazy, and maybe some people that do Ultra running would would, would recognise this as that. I didn't do it because I loved running, you know, I don't think I ever really fell in love of running. I did it because I fell in love with what running, the impact running had on me. And what it allowed me to do from a psychological point of view, and really explore who I was, push my known kind of my perceived mental boundaries, and start to recognise actually that that I, you know, for instance, you know, I feel much more tuned into who I am as a person, I think, as a consequence of going through through that.
34:01
And I think so few people, for whatever reason, and I'm not talking about in the context of altering now, but I think just in life in general, as I think a lot of people that sort of shy away from that they get uncomfortable, you know, they reach their kind of, I guess, limits of what they perceive to be their kind of comfort zones. And they start to back away a little bit because because people don't like discomfort. Fundamentally, people tend to seek the path of least resistance or the most resistance. People tend to want comfort rather than discomfort. But I think I got to a point now where I've said this to somebody the other day and I thought I was crazy, but I tend to find comfort in discomfort weirdly. Because I think it makes you feel a bit more alive. It makes you feel a bit more.
34:51
Yeah, I guess alive is a good expression. So you get that kind of that sort of that that adrenaline sort of Rush, that endorphin rush that you get and
35:00
So to your original question, how would you go from five Kopar and 200 miles? I really think it is. So it is a steady build up and it is, but I think it is looking at running and totally how it worked for me anyway, not necessary for everybody. But just looking at running as a totally different thing running became a vehicle for something else.
35:19
Which was probably psychological, mental emotional exploration, by way of summarising Greg Rutherford, the
35:31
Olympic long, long jump, I mean, he said, on TV, I remember him saying that people who are you sort of athletes, but but this athletes of all levels, I think, yeah. And ages is that athletes are people who are comfortable with being uncomfortable, right? It's okay, that you are that you that you're living on, and you're living at the boundaries of what your, your your body, your tissues can take your, your, your mental, your mental toughness, etc. And it's and you're okay being there on those extremes. And as you say, some people just don't go there because they they've never tried ever wanted to can't see the point or further. Um, but I think when you look at someone who, like these explorers, and we go back, not just to Shackleton and Scott, etc, but but for since since since the dawn of man really don't view him as I should say, is that is that people who just there are some who will just what's on the horizon? Let's go and see what's out there. Yeah, either geographical horizon and then by by in doing so push themselves. Yeah. So whereas there's others who are quite happy to stay home and tend to fire? Yes, yeah. So, you know, that kind of also poses the question, or I suppose maybe it's a comment more than a question. But maybe we all actually impose, have a perception of our limits? Yes. Some of us choose to go beyond that, and challenge those limits. Because whatever circumstances that may be driving that, but it probably suggests that actually everyone has far more than they're capable of that actually, they originally perceive. Yes.
37:18
Yeah, I would agree with that, both from a physical and mental point of view. I think that we, we, as human beings tend to operate
37:30
in a very, I guess, within what are what are perceived boundaries are perceived limitations. And I think when we start to explore those limitations, that people tend to back away, that's when life gets a bit tough, and things get a bit uncomfortable. And, and you see it with children a lot, actually, to circumstances that, you know, they tend to give up on things because it just gets a bit difficult. And so they just stop. And they come up with excuses. I don't like doing it, but actually realities, because it's just got uncomfortable, but they don't have the maturity really to understand that feeling and therefore how to, to work through it. But I think you're I think what tends to happen is we are conditioned somewhat by time we get to adulthood, or certainly in spite certain age, and let's say, let's say midlife, that actually, society is dictating to me that I should really do certain things because you don't do that when your data Yeah, well, it's not doable anymore, because you can't run that far, or you can't. And I think that the way society is structured, you know, education, get a job and money, buy a property, get a mortgage, get married, to have children, there's a lot of things that happen in that process, the all of which, rightly or wrongly, and some of it is subconscious as much as conscious is that all of that really conditioned you to actually go, I've got to I'm now 35, so I shouldn't really be running anymore. I'm now 40. And I shouldn't really be doing that anymore. And so by time you get to sort of that midlife stage your life, you've already effectively said, Well, I shall I won't do that anymore, because I'm too old. But yeah, I've made a decision, which is sort of that any just kind of should be irrelevant. If you feel you've got the capability and you're prepared. Look, it doesn't get any easier as you get older, you know,
39:17
by any stretch of the imagination, but you know, it's been in some ways that's why it makes it interesting, really, is that you know, I still I still I'm 46 You know, I'm no spring chicken, but I feel like I'm trying to say I still feel like I've got more to give. I still feel like I've not hit peak kind of peak fitness. Now in reality, physiologically speaking, I probably have but I suppose I feel that way. But
39:42
no, but we've we've talked about this on previous podcast where where were some people who've who are in their 40s and they're doing things which they never did in their 20s. Now, yes, if you if you take that verse, take those those elements and give it to a 20 year old they'll probably find it a bit they'll find it easier.
40:00
But that 20 year old, your 20 year old self may not have thought why to I'm not going to do that. I've got I'm off to the pub walk down the nightclub, whereas, whereas now we've got this thing where, as Jason said before, you know, we, we are in this in this foot the first time in human history, you've got this group of people of a certain age within certain age group who are doing some some quite incredible things. Yeah. And you being one of them. So it's, but yeah, and you say age is irrelevant. It just, it makes it make can make it harder, but doesn't mean it doesn't make it impossible. No, quite. And I think that yeah, I mean, that would that would always be my advice to I guess anyone in any context at any age is that don't
40:45
it's easy to say, I suppose. But don't let age or don't let social
40:52
preset the pre conditions or whatever dictate to you what it is you do with your life now. Now within reason within the kind of limits of what's legal versus illegal and all that sort of stuff. But I think you understand what I mean that it's so take, you know, the take midlife as a concept, you know, and this sort of idea of midlife crisis is that that's just that's just that is just my opinion. And I'm no expert on the matter, but in my opinion that society seem to primarily men actually, you know, because it's often this idea of midlife crisis applies to men more than it necessarily does women.
41:29
Clearly, women also have other issues as well to deal with in terms what society expects, but I think society sort of says to man, oh, you're just doing something a little bit different when you're going through a midlife crisis. But But Wi Fi most frustrating is that if you make a conscious decision to be healthier, and fitter, and you know, press your you know, your your physical kind of limits and capabilities. That's a really positive thing, because I'm actually that's a really good thing to do for you personally, but also the world around you. So to be labelled as someone who's going through a midlife crisis, because you're making some positive life choices. For me, it's just I just don't get it just infuriates me. It's just like, it's not a crisis. It's just like, I've just decided that like, I don't, you know, I don't, you know, I don't want society to teach me Why should we do when I'm 45? You know, it's kind of it's. So I do find that I yeah, anyway, that.
42:24
Yeah, I think we're all on the same page for that one, that's for sure.
42:29
See, clearly, you'd had enough of drilling through your toenails, because you then took up a different challenge, which was to row across the Atlantic. So tell us how did how did we just different just as different nails is just now.
42:45
You're gonna have toenails? Think of as figured out? Yeah, well, maybe but but it'd be really at a How did that? How did that transition come about? And how did you go from an extreme by any account ultramarathon in the Atacama to run across the Atlantic? Yeah. So I carried on.
43:05
Okay, so just a bit of build up to that. So I carried on ultra Martin doing ultra marathons, I probably did about 50, ultra marathons, of varying lengths, and multi day versus single stage, probably between about 2009 through to about 2015 16.
43:23
All of which are just brilliant experiences, but I just felt really beaten up, just everything hurt, everything hurt.
43:31
And a lot of my friends were, you know, into cycling, you know, obviously the cycling phenomenon, explosion cyclist on yours, and I was the only one that wasn't and so I got into cycling, but I am which I do enjoy. And I still do it now. But it just didn't, didn't do it didn't have the same impact on me that ultra running did and what I loved about your running is that I was going to place it in the Alps or the Brecon Beacons or the art of karma, or wherever else it was worth and where you feel like genuinely, you couldn't really go there unless you are prepared to do on foot, you know, and you feel, you know, running through the night and the Alps, for instance, is as miserable as it was when you do it. You sort of look back then wow, that was amazing experience just with a head torch on high up in the Alps, you know, 25 hours into a 30 hour Ultra and you you, you just feel it's you know, you feel feel quite amazing, you know, certainly afterwards No. So I would do cycling and then an opportunity came up.
44:28
Now I've never rode aside from a few minutes on the work in the gym.
44:35
But I've never been actually on it on a boat and
44:38
an opportunity came up for me to row across the Atlantic and it was it was a guy that good for actually somebody that went to school with my wife many years ago. He was in the military and he left and he's now a
44:51
deputy head of a very famous and well known private school and he
44:57
wishes have conversations years ago you know when you go to bed
45:00
and parties and things like that about this type of chat, you know, like pushing your limits. And where's your quick point? And, you know, how far can you go and all that type stuff. And of course, like it always be over beers and whatever, then of course, nothing will ever happen. And then five months later, here we go another side conversation. And so then this whole thing that I described on my experience work, so I really got into this anyway. So he contacted me and said,
45:21
I've always had a dream, I've always wanted to row across the Atlantic, I'd like you know, I'd like you to join me, I'd like to be on the team, I think you've got, you know, you've got the mindset. And you know, that kind of guy, you'd be a great teammate, and you take it seriously and all of the above and are you in and I was about to head up to Iceland with this guy, actually, who I know your listeners can't see. But your benefit guy called Louie rogue, who's Shackleton director of expeditions 27 years. SCS is a record breaking polar explorer. And, and he was preparing to do a crossing of Antarctica. And I was about to go to Iceland to do some, some training. And if I say, oh, yeah, I'd love to that sounds great. But you know, I was busy doing other things and not did nothing about it. And about two weeks later,
46:05
I was at home in the kitchen. And my wife said,
46:08
Have you spoken to his name's Teddy, if he's going to Teddy? And I said, Yes, wash said, he's woken me up and said that he's asked you to roll across the Atlantic with him. I said, Yeah, I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago. And she said, Well, okay, you're going to do it. I said, Well, I'd love to do it. But what's the point and I said, Okay, family, three young kids running a business, you know, by just, you know, it just feels like too big. To really take it seriously. And she just said to me said that, you're doing it, you've got to do it, you absolutely have to, you know, this, this is, you know, this, this sort of opportunity doesn't come along very often, if at all. And if it does, you know, therefore, you get on with it. And, and so, you know, the conversation sort of started and sort of ended with that, really, and, and, and she knows me well enough to know that I really wanted to do it. And so sort of, give me sort of, I guess, I don't mind, especially this context, mission, a nice way to do it, which I didn't anyway, you know, understand what I mean dynamic with open mic and stuff and don't. So that was I was like, Okay, so. But what's interesting about rowing, the Atlantic, and I cycled quite a bit with X GB rowers, in fact, guys that have won gold medals for Great Britain, and they think is utterly crazy, just bonkers. Why on earth would you row across the Atlantic Ocean, you know, these guys who are prepared to put themselves through hell, you know, and, you know, just, I eyes bulging out and bleeding through their ears for five minutes, you know, to kind of like, just put it all on the line. Anything beyond that is just like, No charts, like, No way I'm doing that. So phenomenal athletes, but actually could have just don't really have that kind of mindset of why would you do this and so I say that the rowing the Atlantic is very much or the way I sort of, sort of consider it anyway, having done it is a survival challenge. It's not a rowing challenge. Yes, you are rowing and your own 24 hours a day. And that's the thing you're doing to get yourself on one side of a very big pond to the other for days and weeks on end. But ultimately, is a survival challenge, the best you're ever going to be physically and mentally and emotionally is day one, the worst is going to be as and it's about managing that decline in a way that is just about as interesting to get your across and
48:41
but I
48:43
I love the whole experience, I love the build up to it. I took the training very seriously and you know, within the context of the young family and running the business, you know, trained as hard as I could
48:57
and and gave it my best shot and it was it was just unbelievable. It really was an amazing amazing experience to the extent that and I don't know whether the whole pandemic thing is contributed to this because as I was saying off air before we before we came on as that I finished that row and effective got back to the UK and then straight into lockdown but it's all it's very difficult really. I know I was on the boat I know I've done it and the photographic evidence and all that type of stuff but it's very difficult to put myself there it's almost like twice sort of surreal experience I've had in my life that I know I know it was me and I did do it but it's very difficult to sort of I tell me this because just so enormous just kind of thing cannot really was me that wrote across the Atlantic it's quite an interesting sort of how many were on when the team so it was actually five of us in total, which was quite unusual and we had five because we expected at least one to drop out. You know either get injured get in
50:00
They'll
50:01
not want to do it all of a sudden. And so So I want to start at five. And as you get whittled down, I don't get startline. But, but But no, all five guys made it to the start line. So it was pretty pretty. It was a bit of a squeeze. It was a cramped space, but
50:18
I think I saw how long we will you're running sessions each time what was your off? Yeah, our routine was 24 hours a day, two hours on two hours off. So we split into a team of two team of three, there was three rowing positions and their own positions are affected like a regular round position slide. Yeah, but double, double sculling this fiscal year.
50:44
And so we split into a two and a three and we just rotated two hours on to as if we didn't break the routine for the whole crossing. And
50:52
it's, I mean, that in itself is pretty. You're so well, for the first two weeks, it was just hellish. Because you're Oh, crikey. First week of just around the seasickness.
51:10
Like I've never experienced before, I think with regular seasickness, you kind of will be on London in an hour, you've got sort of declining? Oh, yeah. Yeah, like, illogically with this, it's like, well, there's no land, you know, this is this is going to go on for as long it's going to go on for
51:26
I was horrible. The thing the sleep pattern is because, you know, I guess my regular sleep pattern is well, six to seven hours in bed, and then the rest of the 24 hour period awake. And, and whereas with this is you're trying to grab 30 to 45 minutes of sleep in your downtime. But because you're just not adjusted to that at all. What tends to happen is you struggle to sleep and you're supposed to be sleeping, and then you struggle to stay awake. And you're supposed to be roaming,
51:54
horrible dynamic, where you're fighting sleep, whilst rowing and being sick. And then you're desperate trying to sleep when you should be, but you can't. And it's just the whole thing is just just awful. For first, how long did it take you to sort of get into a routine, then I wanted to take fuel for your body to adapt. I'd say the first week, you're just fighting all your butt. Everything about you physically, emotionally, mentally, is fighting it. Because you're still closely connected to your pre wrote your pre exhibition life and everything's just wrong. It's just, this is a render, everything hurts. And so it's just a big battle. I think week two, and this is my personal experience of not everyone's to, you start to sort of give up that fight, you start to realise that actually, this we're now a long way from land anyway, because I've been rowing for a week, so you probably basketball 500 miles away from your land. So getting even turn around and go back as a is a pain.
52:55
So you start to give up the fight, and you start to recognise that this is sort of life now. And so then you sort of settle down, get into that routine. I think by week three, week four, you then can sort of turn it on and off, you pretty much get into that rhythm of and because you're rowing well, because we were in two hours on two hours off, might and day and day and not becomes insignificant because we stayed on UK time for the whole crossing. So we weren't, you weren't adjusting our clocks as we were going along. And so my role in shifts were 2pm 6pm 10pm 2am 6am 10am. And so that's all I had to know. And so it's 2am or 2pm, didn't matter, I'm rowing.
53:42
And because the might change because we start on UK time that, you know, sunrise, when we've set off was it say 7am by time we got to the Caribbean Antigo was more like 11am. So weirdly, the days almost flipped. So you kind of you sort of just have to get into that routine of sleeping when you can and eating when you can and then rowing when when you have to regardless of what phase you're in. And did you have any moments where you were, you know, seriously
54:16
endangered?
54:19
Because I imagine you know, it's a busy waterway, there's I mean, we know it's an ocean so there's the dangers there that you know.
54:28
Yeah, it's
54:31
the time I suppose this guy's a funny one.
54:36
I thought and they actually wrote the Atlantic hasn't changed me at all actually interesting is that I've always been quite uncomfortable with or I'm a strong swimmer, but I've always been uncomfortable with open water. I find it difficult to not be able to see lands and also to not know what's beneath me. And so I was very well I was quite curious about how I would cope with that rainy London
55:00
Given a tiny, tiny boat, 1000 miles from land 10 kilometres of water beneath you. But weirdly, when you're in the moment, or certainly I managed to find a coping mechanism to do is when you're in the moment, it Yeah, it's, it's weird, I don't know whether it's because you're just so far away doesn't matter anymore.
55:20
And so if you do end up outside the boat, you just know you're not going to survive. Whereas I guess if you're, you know, maybe there's a sense of, you could survive if you're close enough to shore
55:31
there are, there were definitely moments.
55:35
In the further west, we got, you get to more stormy weather. So you got a lot of loan blow storms, I mean, you hit localised storms, the sea swell becomes enormous.
55:47
And,
55:49
and, and also, believe it or not, you can get wave, you do get wave breaks, you know, sort of even in the middle of Atlantic Ocean. And so you find yourself kind of almost on a roller coaster ride where
56:03
I was in the the power seat, so I have the other rows in front of me. And one point, you're kind of almost looking down on them. Because that beneath you as you're going down the back of as well. And then they're almost directly above you when you're going up. And so it's a kind of constant sort of roller coaster ride. But what sort of happens is you if you actually go up, there's the risk that the boat pitches, which is effective goes end over end, as opposed to capsizing, which is wrong.
56:32
But what happens is, if the boat does rolls, I've got hatches judge, which is at the end of the boat, is the boat will quickly sort of self right anyway. So you sort of go into the water, and you kind of say oh, like you know, and then you're sort of then back again. And so during the day, when you can see everything around you, while sea and sky is that you can sort of see the weather, you can see things happening. And so at least you're sort of you're finding a way of coping with this sort of this kind of risk, there's danger, but But at night, pitch dark. And you can't need to just hear the roar of the ocean. And you're on this ride and that scary. And I think that there's probably a couple of moments where after the moment, you're more scared than when you're in it. Because when you're ready, it's it's happening so quickly. It's
57:24
we don't really know what's going on. And so you're sort of just because it's only lasting for seconds rather than minutes. What happens is after it you don't look back and think oh, the cheeks like you know, I felt were something about very exposed, you know, and, and if I went overboard, that would be the end of me. Yeah. There's no getting back to a boat when you're dead weight and the sea got no, even on a current day of struggle.
57:51
So yeah, so how long did it take you
57:55
that ended up being 42 days, we
57:59
we lost power. So So you have to you have to have some power, because you need to desalinate the water for drinking water, because you can't carry that amount of volume of water. So pour water the ocean desalinated you then drink it, and then you can use it to rehydrate. So hydrate your dehydrated food.
58:20
And then power for things like navigation, that type of stuff. And so you get the power from the sun, solar panels. And then obviously, your energy goes through a lithium battery, and so not day five, but I mean, I mean is the exciting version as long but the reality is we lost we lost power.
58:41
And our batteries never fully recovered. And so every 24 hour cycle, we didn't have enough power. So we had to use what energy we had to desalinate water because that was obviously survival. Whereas navigation was more convenience, I suppose. And sometimes.
58:57
And so we ended up having to navigate by so we selected like a four to six hour period and every 24 hours of where we would
59:07
where we'd say well we'll try and do we'll use energy design later water recognise that would give us no more energy, therefore we'd have to navigate. And
59:16
by by factor, we decided that actually by the stars and the moon
59:22
at night wasn't well stars move, unfortunately. So you can't rely on other than North Star. So as long as you got to fix on the North Star and effects on the moon, you're sort of okay, but when you've got cloud cover, then you're sort of struggling. And so and then in a storm, you can get flipped around quite a lot and then you just get disorientated, you don't know which way you are. So the reason I'm telling you all this is because it took us 42 days, but I think it probably would have We probably lost five or seven days potentially by the loss of power because we lost navigation last year and so it just made it an extra week.
59:55
Added to the adventure, I suppose and the charge going round in many circles.
1:00:00
Yeah,
1:00:01
exactly your way across the Atlantic. Yeah, exactly.
1:00:05
It's funny looking up at the nice guy now I live in London. So you don't get to see that movie stars because of the light pollution. But I was in New York last weekend, you know, and where it's much clearer and just looking up at the sky and just sort of it's funny. Doesn't matter where you are in the world. It looks to say,
1:00:22
crikey, I was using these things here to help you navigate across the Atlantic Ocean.
1:00:28
Anyway.
1:00:31
I can't believe that there is no more challenges. In this a twinkle in your eye. You're obviously you know, Shackleton obviously has that that expedition sort of travel piece that I talked about. Is there a next one?
1:00:48
Yes, yeah.
1:00:51
And
1:00:53
it is imminent.
1:00:56
Ish. I say ish because it is a bit of a logistical challenge just to get to the start line and Coronavirus is not sort of helping with that at the moment but
1:01:08
and having said that, I wasn't a rower, and would never ever again
1:01:13
how Hi, we're attempting the world's first which is to row the Antarctic Ocean basically. Long story short, so our will say we me and crew for we are going to do a reenactment reenactments, we're going to retrace the voyage of the James care which we Shackleton's lifeboats,
1:01:36
which he sailed from Elephant Island to South Georgia to go to Stromness Wayne station where he knew somebody with their to come and get some help when they lost their ship insurance.
1:01:48
And we are going to row from the Antarctic Peninsula to Elephant Island, and then to South Georgia.
1:01:55
It will be a world's first and I think it will set assuming successful journey it will say I think six, six new world records.
1:02:05
So it looks like it's going to go ahead and February as in four months time. If not, it'll be in December.
1:02:16
So just a few logistics, because of travel through South America still complicated and get into the sightlines difficult, but our boats already in Puntarenas. So ready to go. The team's ready to go. But just we've got to get got to get to the start line.
1:02:31
But anyway, so that's that's the near term but
1:02:35
but from a business point of view that yes, you're right. We we've recently launched shackles and challenges which, you know, Expedition experiences. So I'm heavily involved with that Pastor business, because I'm all parts of business, but certainly this one, in terms of building that out. And we are now.
1:02:50
So we have expeditions happening in Norway, next year, Iceland, in the outs in Antarctica and other things in the pipeline. So I'm sort of, I'm not involved in all of those things. Because as much as I'd love to be on all those things.
1:03:10
Are we too impressed if I had to spend my entire life, you know, having a jolly good time? So yeah, it's, I think
1:03:20
it's funny, I was thinking like this as the day is like, I just like this guy here. Let me read. He's 52. And he's actually just he's, hopefully today is flying into Antarctica,
1:03:32
to do another South Pole journey. And then going off to climb Mount Vinson, which has a large amount of Antarctica is guiding we Shackleton through areas guiding a disabled guy who's unfortunately lost the use of his right arm in Afghanistan.
1:03:47
And
1:03:49
so, I just think that this is, you know, I hope I'll carry on doing these things, you know, forevermore, you know, and I don't know how long forevermore is because I still feel young enough now, but, you know, keep going. Okay.
1:04:05
I can see just behind you that there's a sort of a series of commitments, I guess the Shackleton commitments that that. Yeah. And the second one is we strive to the utmost. And I, it struck me that, that that seemed to encompass you. Do you strive to the utmost? Yes. Well, that's very good. Thank you.
1:04:28
Yeah, so that's,
1:04:30
that's it? That's actually taken from shukrans gravestone. So Shackleton's gravestone, which is in Grytviken, which is on South Georgia. On one side is a nine pointed star which was chiselled in two which is that's where our logo comes from. And I'm from sort of the reason why it's known pointed is or the story goes, it's bringing together the Shackleton's favourite number nine with his final diary entry where he describes a gem like star in the night sky and Frank Wilde is you know, his kind of
1:05:00
full water, you know, kind of, you know, right hand man
1:05:05
chisel dissenters gravestone combination those two elements. But on the back as a Robert Browning quotes, which was what a Shackleton saga quotes, which is I hold that a man just drive the Atomos for life that prize and so I think that it's so lovely quote anyway. And obviously it's written as man but that applies to you know women as much as it goes man.
1:05:30
But I love that idea I think of doing what it takes to do the things you really want to achieve in life. And it doesn't matter what that thing is it could be setting up a business, it could be doing a park a park run, it could be overcoming a bad injury, it could be going through illness, it could be a whole host of things, it doesn't matter what it is, it's personal to you, as an individual. Go for it do that thing. And I think that
1:05:55
I think it's interesting to three young children is that especially in this age of, I guess social media, and people judging you all the time and running commentary of, and I guess professional athletes get it all the time, where obviously got a lot of supportive voices, but they get a lot of, you know, people
1:06:11
criticising them and all that type of stuff. And there's a, I don't know, if you guys are familiar with Theodore Roosevelt's quotes from 1912, which is credit belongs to the man in the room or credit belongs to the person. It's not the critic that counts. And basically, this whole passage is all about, it doesn't matter if you fail. By daring, it doesn't matter if you fail, because at least you gave it a go. Yeah. Whereas there's other people in life that will sit on the side of the arena, observe, point out how they would have done it differently, criticise where they went wrong, but are prepared to make the effort aren't prepared to do the do. And and I think this is really, really applicable to social media is that unless you're prepared, it doesn't matter what it is, unless you're prepared to give it a go and you're prepared to fail actually, do not criticise other people, whether they've succeeded or failed, because at least they were prepared to give something to go. And, and I think that you know, in combination with that idea, that sense of Go Go for it, whatever it is, whatever age of life, whatever it is you want to do, combined with this idea, the sense that it doesn't matter if you fail, because it's the doing that is success, you know, it just and you learn so much through failure anyway, you know, you will ultimately come become a better person. And so, in some sense failure in a weird sort of way you learn a lot more than success. Yeah.
1:07:34
Anyway, yeah. So there you go. We strive to the utmost.
1:07:39
And we, we ask all of our guests, whether they're expert and athlete or whatever, we asked the same two questions. Greg, you want to do the honours? Yes. So in this is a two part question. So so the first one is a
1:07:55
what if your two types of exercise to do you can only do two types of exercise for the rest of your life? What would you do?
1:08:06
And to certainly be why?
1:08:08
Running, I suppose. And rowing? Yeah.
1:08:13
So you get off the second ball for the second day. That's why I'd say go for that one seek to exercise to do me good guy. You could be pull ups. It could be press ups, it could be squats, it could be whatever, it could be a thing like cycling, or is that gonna be a thing like cycling? That's fine. You can think
1:08:31
I should this is going to undermine the previous hour.
1:08:37
I think
1:08:39
this is really difficult. Okay, let me think about this. I think it would be
1:08:45
do I think I think I was I think it would be running actually. Because Because as horrible as running is
1:08:54
painful as running is, is that when you when you get into it is it's so great.
1:09:02
But you can just go places that you can't do otherwise you can't. You know, I've been to some amazing places that I would have only got to by doing it on foot. So So yeah, let's go with that. It wasn't running. Right. Okay, so you got you got running what else? What else did you do?
1:09:26
Well, funny, I did my first gravel bike right race in New York last Sunday, and it was 150 kilometres, and it was really, really difficult
1:09:39
and exhausting.
1:09:41
But the beauty of cycling is that you can really, really, really hurt yourself when you're doing it. But the recovery is so much better than any other sport I've ever known. There's something great about getting out of bed in the morning after 100 mile run.
1:10:00
Ride, absolutely burying yourself in the ride and actually working I think it actually has to feel two paths, but you know, you feel a bit tired a bit fatigued, you don't have that horrible achy ness and stiffness that you get with running or team sports, especially contact sports. So, but gravel riding I there was unlike road cycling, for instance, which I do enjoy, but I, I got more outbreak and felt a bit more like an ultra run, you know, a bit more varied a bit more off road bit more, a bit more beaten up.
1:10:30
Okay. And this is the this is sort of the groundhog day of your exercise. Life. But if you could choose one moment, I think you've probably got so many it's going to be impossible to pick. But if you had a moment in your runnings, rowing whatever, life, yeah, and they would you would want to relive day after day. It doesn't have to be winning something doesn't have to be it could be just a sunrise on a particular run, or it doesn't matter. Is there something that stands out in your head? Saying God, yeah, and do that again? And again?
1:11:10
Yeah, actually, that there is and I, what I'm about to describe, I have experienced twice. And it's, I think it's impossible.
1:11:20
Alex, I'll describe it, and then I'll explain why I think it's impossible to achieve. It has to happen to you by accident.
1:11:26
And so one of the two experiences I've heard, I've described, one I was I was doing 100 mile Ultra, which was the Southdowns way it was from Winchester to esport, 105 Miles single stage.
1:11:38
And
1:11:40
quite undulating as you'd expect, you know, so pretty challenging run. And it was the middle of summer, I think it was I think it was the
1:11:49
the last day of June, and we we left Winchester like 5am 6am I think it was so by time sundown. So I'm assuming sundown is about 930 that time of year, you're sort of roughly 15 hours into the run. So you're probably I don't know, maybe 75 miles into the 100 miles. And I remember being very high up on the South Downs in the middle of nowhere by myself, sun was going down to the right in the distance, I could see the the English Channel
1:12:18
and the coastline of southern England to the left, you know, obviously, north south down. So up towards
1:12:25
looking over the Sussex countryside. I guess it must have been. And
1:12:30
I remember having this
1:12:35
what I can describe as an out of body experience this sort of
1:12:39
all pain or discomfort, all life just sort of disappeared out of me. And it was only when I got back to consciousness. So it was only after that moment that I realised I'd been through what was obviously a deep kind of spiritual sort of meditative state. And I don't mean special in a religious sense, but a very deep, deep connection with just the other day it was the environment the moment and nothing, nothing mattered. But weirdly, it was almost as though to me just dropping off to sleep, you get that sort of job thing. And you sort of wake up it was almost like that happened. It was almost like a jolt back into consciousness. So I don't really know how long it lasted for. But I remember it just been a massive sense of just just euphoric. It was like a moment of euphoria. And I had to have it actually had to karma as well. And that's the only two times has ever happened to me in my life full stop, let alone auto running. But I have spoken to other organisms about it. And they do they have also described a similar state. But it's impossible is impossible to go there. You can't will yourself into that state.
1:13:47
So I so I think, yeah, so I think that moment on the Southdowns way for lots of reasons why I think maybe because I was alone. It's sort of gone down. It was a beautiful evening. I was you know, just just just everything felt right. And great. And kind of sort of deep sort of meditative, I guess. Yeah. Fantastic. Well, hopefully you'll get another one of em. It's been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Thank you for giving the time to do it. We wish you the absolute very best with it with this next trip. I hope it comes off. And I hope you're all safe. Yeah, great. So much and it's been great. I've really enjoyed the last hour plus it's been
1:14:34
a work to do but this is this was great fun. So Pleasure to meet you both really enjoyed the chat. And so very often I get the chance to talk about these things. So it's quite nice, great blog. Thank you
1:14:47
guys, thanks guys are the very best